Monday, April 10, 2006
Don't Call Me Sugar
Years ago, I went out with a woman three times in a couple of weeks. Even though I was making $30,000 as a customer service representative at JDate, I'd paid for everything, including two $75 meals and a dozen bagels one Sunday morning when she'd forgotten her wallet. Generously, she offered to pick up our fourth date.
She called me at work the next day to tell me that she heard of a play that sounded like fun. She said she was busy and asked if I could find out if there were tickets available. No problem. I called the theater and learned there were only six left. What's a guy to do? No big deal, I bought a pair of tickets and figured she'd pick up dinner before we went out.
After our $40 meal, she put down her credit card and went to the bathroom. When she came back, she noticed that I didn't put in my card to pick up or split the check. Upon which she glared at me and said, with a ton of venom and not a shred of irony: "What am I, your sugar mama?!"
Yeah, being a guy isn't always the most rewarding thing in the world. But what are you gonna do? I've stopped wondering about what's "fair" and have decided to embrace the system I've inherited. In this system, a guy pays unquestionably, and if a woman offers to pay, he is supposed to say no. At least on the first few dates. Or as long as she's being courted. Or maybe always. It depends on the woman. We can never know unless we let down our guard and allow her to pick up a check. And by then, it's often too late to justify your egalitarian behavior.
This is a quandary, all right, and there is no one right answer. As a guy who's been on far too many dates, I've heard all the stories from both sides and every angle. But since logic doesn't seem to get much play in this realm, I'm gonna give it some face time.
WHAT PEOPLE SAY:
HER: He should WANT to pay for me.
Yes, and, generally, that is the case. Being generous, especially to someone you care about, is an incredible feeling - right up there, I'm told, with having everything paid for by someone else.
HIM: She EXPECTS me to pay for everything.
Yes, and that's the precedent that was established way before you were born. Don't fight it, just do it with a smile, 'cause if you don't, you ain't getting another date.
HER: He SHOULD pay, especially at the beginning.
This logic is a little dicier. Why should a man pay? Because it's chivalrous? Consider that chivalry started at a time when men worked and women didn't. Women, literally, could NOT pay. Thus, men picking up the check sprung out of necessity, not out of kindness. It has since been codified into a gentleman's code, which is considered in very poor taste to question. I'm not questioning, but see how angry you are that I'm even bringing it up?
HIM: But SHE asked me out.
So what? If etiquette says that you pay for the first date, and she expects you to pay for the first date, and you can afford to pay for the first date, then pay for the damn first date.
HER: It doesn't matter what he makes. A gentleman always pays.
If a guy makes a ton of money, I can assure you, it's his absolute joy and pleasure to spring for every last drink and spa treatment and treat you like the princess you undoubtedly are. But there's a big difference between being cheap and being poor. Cheap means the guy asks his date to pay for the fish when he ordered the less expensive chicken. Poor means that the guy has trouble making rent if he has to pay for five dates in a month. Put yourself in his position: it's hard to blame him for wanting to alternate checks.
My solution is, not surprisingly, an equivocation. Let's all try to understand one another. Guys, be as generous as possible, not only because she expects you to, but because it's genuinely rewarding to "be the guy" and make life easier on her. Women, be sympathetic to the grad student or schoolteacher that doesn't have the means to be as chivalrous as he'd like to be. You may not be our sugar mamas, but please don't take it for granted that we're your ATM's, okay?
She called me at work the next day to tell me that she heard of a play that sounded like fun. She said she was busy and asked if I could find out if there were tickets available. No problem. I called the theater and learned there were only six left. What's a guy to do? No big deal, I bought a pair of tickets and figured she'd pick up dinner before we went out.
After our $40 meal, she put down her credit card and went to the bathroom. When she came back, she noticed that I didn't put in my card to pick up or split the check. Upon which she glared at me and said, with a ton of venom and not a shred of irony: "What am I, your sugar mama?!"
Yeah, being a guy isn't always the most rewarding thing in the world. But what are you gonna do? I've stopped wondering about what's "fair" and have decided to embrace the system I've inherited. In this system, a guy pays unquestionably, and if a woman offers to pay, he is supposed to say no. At least on the first few dates. Or as long as she's being courted. Or maybe always. It depends on the woman. We can never know unless we let down our guard and allow her to pick up a check. And by then, it's often too late to justify your egalitarian behavior.
This is a quandary, all right, and there is no one right answer. As a guy who's been on far too many dates, I've heard all the stories from both sides and every angle. But since logic doesn't seem to get much play in this realm, I'm gonna give it some face time.
WHAT PEOPLE SAY:
HER: He should WANT to pay for me.
Yes, and, generally, that is the case. Being generous, especially to someone you care about, is an incredible feeling - right up there, I'm told, with having everything paid for by someone else.
HIM: She EXPECTS me to pay for everything.
Yes, and that's the precedent that was established way before you were born. Don't fight it, just do it with a smile, 'cause if you don't, you ain't getting another date.
HER: He SHOULD pay, especially at the beginning.
This logic is a little dicier. Why should a man pay? Because it's chivalrous? Consider that chivalry started at a time when men worked and women didn't. Women, literally, could NOT pay. Thus, men picking up the check sprung out of necessity, not out of kindness. It has since been codified into a gentleman's code, which is considered in very poor taste to question. I'm not questioning, but see how angry you are that I'm even bringing it up?
HIM: But SHE asked me out.
So what? If etiquette says that you pay for the first date, and she expects you to pay for the first date, and you can afford to pay for the first date, then pay for the damn first date.
HER: It doesn't matter what he makes. A gentleman always pays.
If a guy makes a ton of money, I can assure you, it's his absolute joy and pleasure to spring for every last drink and spa treatment and treat you like the princess you undoubtedly are. But there's a big difference between being cheap and being poor. Cheap means the guy asks his date to pay for the fish when he ordered the less expensive chicken. Poor means that the guy has trouble making rent if he has to pay for five dates in a month. Put yourself in his position: it's hard to blame him for wanting to alternate checks.
My solution is, not surprisingly, an equivocation. Let's all try to understand one another. Guys, be as generous as possible, not only because she expects you to, but because it's genuinely rewarding to "be the guy" and make life easier on her. Women, be sympathetic to the grad student or schoolteacher that doesn't have the means to be as chivalrous as he'd like to be. You may not be our sugar mamas, but please don't take it for granted that we're your ATM's, okay?
Comments:
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I'm extremely uncomfortable with the whole money dynamic in dating, especially since I have no money myself, and lots of the guys I go out with don't have much either, but I have to say that who pays is one of the strongest indicators that we have that someone likes us--some friends even use the "why don't we split the check" question to indicate that they're not all that interested...
I wish someone would just pass a law or something. Violators will be ticketed.
I wish someone would just pass a law or something. Violators will be ticketed.
If its any consolation to the gentlemen out there, women in the dating world have a lot of hidden costs that enable us to spend that evening with you. You like us to look beautiful for you - and well, precious few of us ladies can be that beautiful au naturelle. Instead, we spend ridiculous sums of money to look fantastic for you - hair, clothes, make up, nails (I've been shocked at how important manicured nails are to men - really), the way our skin feels, the way we smell. That all costs and I suspect if we were to tally those costs up and compare them to the expenditures on us for a date, we may find out that dating is an overall financial loss for us women:-) And for us single moms, add in the babysitter which in my area is $10/hour. It is not uncommon for me to have paid $40 for a babysitter to be the beneficiary of a $6 glass of wine.
Maybe its a generational thing (I'm only 25), but my experiences are very different to the ones you outlined. On early dates, I always approach it with the attitude that I'm happy to pay for everything, and as a consequence I'll always put my card down at the end of a meal, pay for her entrance etc. However, my date normally responds by giving me payment for half the bill, and it would seem more then a tad patronising to start a 'but i insist' argument in the middle of a restaraunt. Do women expect you to refuse their offer of paying half?
"Do women expect you to refuse their offer of paying half?"
Oh, yes, Anonymous. Very much so. What you call "patronising", most women would call "cheap". Continue to split the bill at your own risk, my friend...
Oh, yes, Anonymous. Very much so. What you call "patronising", most women would call "cheap". Continue to split the bill at your own risk, my friend...
Good grief. What is all this? Isn't everyone making it really complicated? If you're going on that many dates, don't you sort of find out about each other a bit? You know, if you're skint you tell them, and you do something you can both afford.
Or ... and this, in my books, is only good manners: you GO DUTCH. If a man insists on paying for dinner, then great. If you've insisted on paying for dinner and she hasn't returned the favour, but has thanked you a lot and tried to insist on paying herself, then - fine. That's your choice.
And as for the comment about 'hidden costs'. I really, really don't get this. If I choose to have a manicure (we don't do that much in the UK - we're heathens, remember), or have my hair cut, or buy a new pair of shoes, THAT'S MY CHOICE. And the day I ever dress 'for a man' will be the day I give up.
I'm a bit fat, got rubbish hair, smoke, shout, swear, argue, have a manicure about twice a year, am a stranger to waxing unless I'm on a promise, and think it's polite to go dutch if you've just met someone - you're both in it together. I also occasionally get taken out for dinner by lovely men, and dress up and look as lovely as I can (not bad on a good day) because it makes me feel good, and more confident. But that's my choice.
If there's something I make an effort with when I'm on a date, it's them: listen to them, have fun, be interesting, talk about stuff, find out about them. Whether or not I've got a manicure is hardly the point. And if it were, I'd no more want to be with that person that I would want to fly to the moon on the back of a pig.
Great blog by the way. Things are different over here, you know. Do let me know if you need a nice, scruffy, ironic British perspective on the lovely world of internet dating ...
All best wishes
DM
Or ... and this, in my books, is only good manners: you GO DUTCH. If a man insists on paying for dinner, then great. If you've insisted on paying for dinner and she hasn't returned the favour, but has thanked you a lot and tried to insist on paying herself, then - fine. That's your choice.
And as for the comment about 'hidden costs'. I really, really don't get this. If I choose to have a manicure (we don't do that much in the UK - we're heathens, remember), or have my hair cut, or buy a new pair of shoes, THAT'S MY CHOICE. And the day I ever dress 'for a man' will be the day I give up.
I'm a bit fat, got rubbish hair, smoke, shout, swear, argue, have a manicure about twice a year, am a stranger to waxing unless I'm on a promise, and think it's polite to go dutch if you've just met someone - you're both in it together. I also occasionally get taken out for dinner by lovely men, and dress up and look as lovely as I can (not bad on a good day) because it makes me feel good, and more confident. But that's my choice.
If there's something I make an effort with when I'm on a date, it's them: listen to them, have fun, be interesting, talk about stuff, find out about them. Whether or not I've got a manicure is hardly the point. And if it were, I'd no more want to be with that person that I would want to fly to the moon on the back of a pig.
Great blog by the way. Things are different over here, you know. Do let me know if you need a nice, scruffy, ironic British perspective on the lovely world of internet dating ...
All best wishes
DM
This has been a quandry for me just now dating for the first time ever. I have had 2 very long term marriages. I was always under the impression that men pay for the dates. I am always careful to not cost them too much. I don't get the most expensive item on a menu and I don't have more than one drink and never dessert. If I hear of a good event, I suggest. If the guy doesn't run to get tickets or whatever, I may go alone or offer to treat them. I have dated 8 men in the past year. All but 1 paid for everything. I have asked men I know about this. It's conclusive that most men feel they should be the ones to pay. I made the mistake of making sure everything was fairly equal while dating my second husband. Then I got promotions and made more. I also had 2 little kids and he had none. What the marriage developed into was his expecting me to financially foot the bill so he could do whatever he wanted. He left me because I could not back him a business he wanted to try. He is on his next victim now. So I had a date with a very handsome fellow on Match. He was a professional, chiropractor, massage therapist, accupuncturist. He lived in a historical part of town and owned 4 lots of property. He loved to wine and dine and see plays and kept hinting about traveling. One night, late, we had been out at a city event and he decides he is hungry.It's late and I am not. So he asks if we go to a restaurant, can I pick up the tab. Without hesitation I said NO. He looked perturbed. What would happen is, I would agree and he would order appetizer, entree, bottle of wine.....and all I want is water. SO no way. I made my point known. I told him the fellow pays and I treat on occassion but that's how I date. He attended my formal office party, had a terrific time, I had fun and we get back to my home for tea and he says, "OK, I want you to know that when I date a woman I EXPECT her to at least cover her expenses on the date. That's how I am, it's equality. " I told him, then it wasn't a date. Be very careful in how generous you are with a man until you've really established the relationship. I have had the unfortunate experience of their being a motive to a man wanting a woman to pay for things. I am a very liberal woman, but traditional at the same time. I believe it's a standard everyone has to at least discuss and make a choice on. I believe if a man is interested enough in you, that it's his pleasure to pay for the date. I never set high expectations or complain that I am not in some high class restaurant. I am always grateful and make sure to always thank them for wherever and whatever a man pays for.
Oh, and I don't agree with a prior post where what you spend to maintain yourself or hire a babysitter is in any way a standard for why men pay. That is YOUR choice and you pay for what you can. Then I am not one that feels my nails have to be done to eat at Red Lobster or attend a darkened smokey venue for great music. I don't believe any of those reasons are justification or rationalization for why the man pays for a date. If a man is worried about my nails being painted as opposed to how deep and beautiful my eyes are or how "fixed" my hair is as opposed to how funny I am......he ain't worth any of it anyway!
Um... How about listening to your date. The first two weeks or so should be on the guy - closer to a week if the dating is more frequent, a little longer if you both are taking your time. But here's the deal, don't come right out and bluntly ask about their finances, but rather check out the other persons profession and lifestyle. Their car and house or apartment should let you really narrow down your potential mates economic ability. Ladies, if you insist on steak and he's a grad student with two menial jobs, well then your radar is off. If the fellow is a newly minted partner in his firm, then he needs to act like it. I've had great dates in fancy steakhouses and divey hot dog stands (and fancy hot dog stands too) and its about the person you're dating. And ladies, here's a way to start sharing the cost of dinner now that you're sharing the workplace - offer to pay the tip somewhere around the fifth date (so long as the service was good). I have even on occasion asked (with the excuse of not having any small bills) if the lady wouldn't mind helping out with the tip. This allows us guys to get a little window of how generous our potential partner is, and everyone should be a good tipper regardless. Its a low cost, non-insulting way to help out, and eases the woman into helping out if the two incomes are comparable (or if the lady makes more.)
Just a tip, if you'll pardon the expression.
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Just a tip, if you'll pardon the expression.
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